suggestions on first bike - Page 3

Bad-mofo · 08-06-2007, 03:34 PM

The guy has supposedly made his mind, so it's OK to talk about lap times.

I think 99% of [new] riders struggle with making the turn (not going wide) 99% of the time, not running off the inside. Did you also have over correction problem on a bicycle?

How hard you push down on the bars, man? Or you use a hammer?

Sorry. I just don't understand how it's physically possible to apply too much pressure on the bars. If the bike reads your mind (light ones do) it's not even a conscious effort. On a heavier bike, like my first gen 600RR, it's a very conscious and also very physical effort.

As far as stability vs. flickability, that notorious "stability" Honda is famous for and Yamaha allegedly lacks only matters when going over WSIR T8 dips and bumps at 130mph. Also it's somewhat annoying riding over smaller T2 pavement irregularities at 105mph. It on;y matters on a friggin' track! In fact having owned both bikes I prefer the "nervous" R6 more for its explicit feedback, as the bars angrily tell me if I'm applying the wrong kind of pressure.

spewmonkey · 08-06-2007, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad-mofo

The guy has supposedly made his mind, so it's OK to talk about lap times.

I think 99% of [new] riders struggle with making the turn (not going wide) 99% of the time, not running off the inside. Did you also have over correction problem on a bicycle?

How hard you push down on the bars, man? Or you use a hammer?

Sorry. I just don't understand how it's physically possible to apply too much pressure on the bars. If the bike reads your mind (light ones do) it's not even a conscious effort. On a heavier bike, like my first gen 600RR, it's a very conscious and also very physical effort.

As far as stability vs. flickability, that notorious "stability" Honda is famous for and Yamaha allegedly lacks only matters when going over WSIR T8 dips and bumps at 130mph. Also it's somewhat annoying riding over smaller T2 pavement irregularities at 105mph. It on;y matters on a friggin' track! In fact having owned both bikes I prefer the "nervous" R6 more for its explicit feedback, as the bars angrily tell me if I'm applying the wrong kind of pressure.

What's pushing hard and a hammer have to do with over correction and a bicycle?? If you don't know what I'm talking about just say so you don't have to get personal and insulting. For those of you that do know what I'm talking about you would have to agree that twitchiness of modern 600s is a desirable quality for those who like a bike that changes directions fast.

BTW: You're only taking T8 at 130mph? Seems kinda slow. T2 at 100?? what part?? if you're taking it correctly it's a double apex with the peak speed in a smooth arc between the apexes, the bumps shouldn't matter much since you're not leaned over very far in the smooth arc and your suspension/tires should have no problem dealing with these minor irregularities. The bars should never angrily tell you anything bro, check your setup.

Lastly all these things matter on the street. The street is where NORMAL people do the bulk of their riding and learning. When you've purchased a bike that is as purpose built as the leading 6's, IMHO, they can and will get you in trouble just as fast as a liter bike esp. noobs that get talked in to buying them.

Bad-mofo · 08-06-2007, 06:25 PM

OK, so what's "overcorrection" and how it's related to lighter bikes? Other than that's a reality whatever it means. That's what I've found so far on the term:
Traffic Safety Tip-Steering Overcorrection
Unsure how it relates to bikes. If you lost traction and started going sideways, you're in a heap of trouble on any bike. The heaviest would high side you the most violently. Is overcorrection somehow related to the traction loss recovery? Real great discussion for noobs I must say. Anyway, I admit, I don't know. Not being one of the chosen few (that you referred to as "those of you who do know what I'm talking about"), I'm just going to assume you meant too much horizontal bar input like "pro-steering" (as opposed to counter-steering). Is that what you meant by twitchiness? The ease of moving the bars from side to side? Doesn't the 07 600RR have the electronic speed-sensitive steering damper that prevents it? Or it was throttle twitchiness? Specifically addressed by FI innovations like dual throttles and drive by wire. Newer is better, period. Lighter, smoother, and on top of everything, safer.

Here's you chance to call me stupid again if I assumed it incorrectly about overcorrection. You can do it as many times as you want until you actually care to give your correct definition of that term if you even want to. You'd only talk to people with tons of experience and insider knowledge who understand "what you're talking about", right? I guess I'm out of the loop, as I only know about "correction" like mid-corner "50-pencing". Oops, that term is classified. Meant only "for those of you who know what I'm talking about".

If I guessed the overcorrection correctly though: the lighter bike being vulnerable to tank slappers; Honestly tanks slappers are so rare I can't imagine it happening to a newbie at street speeds. Especially with a steering damper standard on all new bikes. I never even thought of turning the bars when I started riding. If you completely screw up the geometry/suspension, sure, it'll happen. But not on a brand new bike with stock tires and settings.

Let's not brag about how we take WSIR's T8 or T2 in terms of speed and lines. Those speeds were my personal reference to approaching serious lean angles (touching down) and starting to feel the pavement irregularities with the handlebars. You're right, it's not gonna happen at street speeds and lean angles, but that only means the bike's "confidence-inspiring stability" is irrelevant for the street. The flickability remains relevant though. And it does inspire confidence on the street, as you don't think twice about the bike cooperating with you. It just turns where you want it to. Not to mention emergencies. Even going relatively slow (by track standards) you may find yourself needing to quickly change the bike's direction to avoid an obstacle. Sure, after a while you learn how to leverage your whole body to easily flick the bike from left to in half-second. But you'd definitely benefit from a lighter cooperative bike in the first year of riding. The last thing you need after a sudden discovery of a decreasing radius turn is an unintuitive bike that's refusing to cooperate.

wayne858 · 08-07-2007, 01:30 AM

hahaha i didnt think this thread would go so far but thanks to everyone that gave me those hints. to be honest i dont even have the money to get the bike yet that is why im going to get a job soon and get the money. even though i cant get the bike i wanted yet soon, can i get everyone's suggestion on a good 600 bike. i want a bike that are good on the turns.

Gwyneth · 08-07-2007, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne858

hahaha i didnt think this thread would go so far but thanks to everyone that gave me those hints. to be honest i dont even have the money to get the bike yet that is why im going to get a job soon and get the money. even though i cant get the bike i wanted yet soon, can i get everyone's suggestion on a good 600 bike. i want a bike that are good on the turns.

Hi Wayne, I don't know your riding experience, but if you haven't already done so you should sign up for the MSF course. It's a great way to get your basics down and you learn on bikes no bigger than 250s. It won't teach you everything, but it's a great start and a safe environment is provided. Plus, if you pass the class you don't have to take the driving test at DMV (always a plus). As far as choosing the bike for you, why not go to the various m/c dealerships around here and start throwing a leg over the different 600s out there. That's what I did until I finally found the bike that "fit" me. Each bike has a different feel to it, and I think each bike will do just fine in cornering/track days. All that lingo being spewed about is great for those that have been riding awhile, but realistically you will not be a good enough rider off the bat to put a bike through it's "real" paces. While you are out there bike hunting, ask the sales guys their opinions, look up reviews on the web, check out how much insurance will be on the bike, etc. Ask as many questions as you want, and use the answers you get to make your own educated decision on what to buy. It's OK to buy used. It's OK to buy new. Everybody has different tastes in bikes. I ride a 2005 Kawasaki ZZR600. I love my bike. Why? It's light enough that I can move it around with the balls of my feet (I can't flat foot on any bike). The positioning of the handlebars and the foot pegs make it more of a sport-touring bike, which means I can go longer distances without becoming sore. The bike was the ZX-6R race bike, so it still has a lot of components on it that make it a blast to ride on the track and in the canyons. Have fun bike hunting and good luck on finding a job.

Draconius · 08-07-2007, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne858

hahaha i didnt think this thread would go so far but thanks to everyone that gave me those hints. to be honest i dont even have the money to get the bike yet that is why im going to get a job soon and get the money. even though i cant get the bike i wanted yet soon, can i get everyone's suggestion on a good 600 bike. i want a bike that are good on the turns.

Hey. I started out on a Shadow 600 and then 4 months later switched to a sportbike. I used to hate them with a passion and then I rode one. My first sportbike was an 02 CBR600F4i and I would suggest that to anyone. It is a GREAT bike to learn on and use as your entry level. I now ride a gsxr600 and I am SO glad I didn't get new first. That way if anything DID happen to the F4i I wouldn't be as irritated.

If you have ~$4k my roommate is selling his great condition 01 F4i. All it needs is a front tire and I believe registration.

spewmonkey · 08-07-2007, 11:22 AM

I test road one of the best (IMHO) 'First Bikes' yesterday, I wish we could have them imported here in the USA: 2003 Honda CB 400 It was freaking FUN!! With plenty of power just not a lot of grunt but c'mon it's a 400. The miles on it and the fact that it's currently registered in FL are going to make it hard to reg here but not impossible, we may go for it: Honda CB 400 $3000 OBO
Dune's going to sign up for MSF, she needs to talk to Matt and that one old dude............Wanderereerer.....or something.

As far as BMF's comments.........anybody can pick up a book and learn about 50 pencing I highly recommend gong to B&N and purchasing a few for a good start in sportbike riding, no steering damper on the new ZX6r, I wasn't bragging about speeds through turns at WSIR it appears that you may have been trying to, and nobody called you anything, you did.

Bad-mofo · 08-07-2007, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne858

i want a bike that are good on the turns.

All supersport (600cc) bikes from the Big [Japanese] Four:
- Honda CBR600RR,
- Yamaha R6,
- Suzuki GSXR-600,
- and Kawasaki ZX-6R
are pretty darn close, so it comes to styling. I suggest you get a new one, as they have the cutting edge technology to make them lighter and smoother. Whether you're getting new or used, read Motorcycle USA - Motorcycles and Motorcycle News "Supersport shootout" review: either the current one (2007) or the year you want to get. Read it with a grain of salt, as it was ridden by experts and taken to the limit. You're not likely to experience their problems: headshakes, tire slippage, etc.

There's another excellent anorexic bike: Triumph 675, but you might run into problems selling it. Something to think about. So stick to the Big Four.

Out of used bikes I favor the lightest ones: 03-05 R6 and 03-04 ZX-6R (it's actually 636cc). 05-06 ZX-6R (also 636) is also an excellent nimble bike though I don't like the styling. FIY the current ZZR600 is even older (02 I believe) ZX-6R. I wouldn't go that far (5 years back) especially buying it brand new for $7K. I also wouldn't recommend pre-06 Gixxers (GSXR-600), but 06-07 are great well-balanced user-friendly bikes.

My personal favorite out of brand new bikes is 2007 ZX-6R as it's also well-balanced, intuitive, feature-rich, and user-friendly. The ultimate 2007 supersport bike is CBR600RR, but I don't like the styling at all, neither of course the price.

Financially, if you crash a brand new shiny bike the way noobs do it (mellow to moderate lowsides) it's going to cost you $1200 max in plastics. Or less if you're getting plastics off eBay. The parts cost the same whether the bike is new or used. I'm the type of person that wouldn't drive a scratched or dented vehicle no matter how old. So for me dropping the [street] bike wasn't an option. It'd probably impede your learning, but also motivate you to be careful and pay attention to the road. That's my comment on buying an older model you're supposedly not afraid to drop. Crashing on the street is not an option, and if it did happen, I'd restore the bike to its original condition.

EDIT: One more thing. If you go to the dealerships and start "throwing your leg over", do not let the salesperson tell you "what's right for your build". That's one of the stupidest reasonings people use. And don't judge the bike by sitting on it in the showroom with your legs on the floor. It's completely different when you start moving. A perfect example is 600RR considered by some to have "extreme" ergonomics and hard uncomfortable seat. Trust me, they're all comfortable once you get used to it (a couple of hours in the saddle).

littlebit · 08-07-2007, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad-mofo

All supersport (600cc) bikes from the Big [Japanese] Four:
- Honda CBR600RR,
- Yamaha R6,
- Suzuki GSXR-600,
- and Kawasaki ZX-6R
are pretty darn close, so it comes to styling. I suggest you get a new one, as they have the cutting edge technology to make them lighter and smoother. Whether you're getting new or used, read Motorcycle USA - Motorcycles and Motorcycle News "Supersport shootout" review: either the current one (2007) or the year you want to get. Read it with a grain of salt, as it was ridden by experts and taken to the limit. You're not likely to experience their problems: headshakes, tire slippage, etc.

There's another excellent anorexic bike: Triumph 675, but you might run into problems selling it. Something to think about. So stick to the Big Four.

Out of used bikes I favor the lightest ones: 03-05 R6 and 03-04 ZX-6R (it's actually 636cc). 05-06 ZX-6R (also 636) is also an excellent nimble bike though I don't like the styling. FIY the current ZZR600 is even older (02 I believe) ZX-6R. I wouldn't go that far (5 years back) especially buying it brand new for $7K. I also wouldn't recommend pre-06 Gixxers (GSXR-600), but 06-07 are great well-balanced user-friendly bikes.

My personal favorite out of brand new bikes is 2007 ZX-6R as it's also well-balanced, intuitive, feature-rich, and user-friendly. The ultimate 2007 supersport bike is CBR600RR, but I don't like the styling at all, neither of course the price.

Financially, if you crash a brand new shiny bike the way noobs do it (mellow to moderate lowsides) it's going to cost you $1200 max in plastics. Or less if you're getting plastics off eBay. The parts cost the same whether the bike is new or used. I'm the type of person that wouldn't drive a scratched or dented vehicle no matter how old. So for me dropping the [street] bike wasn't an option. It'd probably impede your learning, but also motivate you to be careful and pay attention to the road. That's my comment on buying an older model you're supposedly not afraid to drop. Crashing on the street is not an option, and if it did happen, I'd restore the bike to its original condition.

EDIT: One more thing. If you go to the dealerships and start "throwing your leg over", do not let the salesperson tell you "what's right for your build". That's one of the stupidest reasonings people use. And don't judge the bike by sitting on it in the showroom with your legs on the floor. It's completely different when you start moving. A perfect example is 600RR considered by some to have "extreme" ergonomics and hard uncomfortable seat. Trust me, they're all comfortable once you get used to it (a couple of hours in the saddle).

I believe that when gwen suggested test sitting some bikes she was trying to get the point across that some bikes just fit better on some people, not necessarily that it should fit comfortably like you're on a sofa. i think it's safe to assume that almost everyone agrees on this site that if you want a sofa with wheels, buy a harley or something like that. For example I feel more comfortable with the balls of my feet on the pegs so that my knees settle better along the tank. (whether that's appropriate or not i'm not asking for style critic, thanx) my legs are too short being a girl for the ergonomics to be appropriate but it feels like a better fit than others i've tried with the other aspects i was looking for.

oh and just for an extra umph, i love my old dinasaur bike, no matter what anyone says about it. and just as importantly, those who actually know bikes, like mine too. and it does it's job.

wayne858 · 08-08-2007, 03:12 AM

[quote=Gwyneth;63107]Hi Wayne, I don't know your riding experience, but if you haven't already done so you should sign up for the MSF course. It's a great way to get your basics down and you learn on bikes no bigger than 250s. It won't teach you everything, but it's a great start and a safe environment is provided. Plus, if you pass the class you don't have to take the driving test at DMV (always a plus).

What is a MSF course and where can i take one. Seems like it can be alot of help for me. Please help me out on where to take it if i live in San Diego. Thanks to everyone that helped me out because all of the information that you are feeding me is making me learn so much that i love going on this forum to learn more. I am now narrowing down my pick to:
-Honda CBR600RR
-Honda CBR600F4i (btw whats the difference between the F4i and the CBR600RR)
-Yamaha R6
-Kawasaki ZX-6R (even though its 636cc)
-Kawasaki ZZR600

Any suggestions on why i shouldnt get one of those bikes or why i should get those bikes. And what does all of those letters stand for .

Hahahahah yeah im trying to learn the most i can and thanks to this forum im learning alot more. Thanks again to everyone for being so nice to a newbie .

08-07-2007, 11:22 AM	#27
spewmonkey Know It All Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Spam Diego, CA Bikes: 06' ZX10R, 02' Warrior Posts: 454 iTrader: (0) Rep Power: 2 (25)	I test road one of the best (IMHO) 'First Bikes' yesterday, I wish we could have them imported here in the USA: 2003 Honda CB 400 It was freaking FUN!! With plenty of power just not a lot of grunt but c'mon it's a 400. The miles on it and the fact that it's currently registered in FL are going to make it hard to reg here but not impossible, we may go for it: Honda CB 400 $3000 OBO Dune's going to sign up for MSF, she needs to talk to Matt and that one old dude............Wanderereerer.....or something. As far as BMF's comments.........anybody can pick up a book and learn about 50 pencing I highly recommend gong to B&N and purchasing a few for a good start in sportbike riding, no steering damper on the new ZX6r, I wasn't bragging about speeds through turns at WSIR it appears that you may have been trying to, and nobody called you anything, you did. __________________ +1 ?Any girl's at this forum want meet up and have fun ride then hook with us?

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08-06-2007, 03:34 PM	#21
Bad-mofo Canyon Carver Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Aliso Viejo, CA Bikes: 03 R6, 04 R1, 06 450SMR Age: 37 Posts: 556 iTrader: (0) Rep Power: 4 (16)	The guy has supposedly made his mind, so it's OK to talk about lap times. I think 99% of [new] riders struggle with making the turn (not going wide) 99% of the time, not running off the inside. Did you also have over correction problem on a bicycle? How hard you push down on the bars, man? Or you use a hammer? Sorry. I just don't understand how it's physically possible to apply too much pressure on the bars. If the bike reads your mind (light ones do) it's not even a conscious effort. On a heavier bike, like my first gen 600RR, it's a very conscious and also very physical effort. As far as stability vs. flickability, that notorious "stability" Honda is famous for and Yamaha allegedly lacks only matters when going over WSIR T8 dips and bumps at 130mph. Also it's somewhat annoying riding over smaller T2 pavement irregularities at 105mph. It on;y matters on a friggin' track! In fact having owned both bikes I prefer the "nervous" R6 more for its explicit feedback, as the bars angrily tell me if I'm applying the wrong kind of pressure.

08-06-2007, 06:25 PM	#23
Bad-mofo Canyon Carver Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Aliso Viejo, CA Bikes: 03 R6, 04 R1, 06 450SMR Age: 37 Posts: 556 iTrader: (0) Rep Power: 4 (16)	OK, so what's "overcorrection" and how it's related to lighter bikes? Other than that's a reality whatever it means. That's what I've found so far on the term: Traffic Safety Tip-Steering Overcorrection Unsure how it relates to bikes. If you lost traction and started going sideways, you're in a heap of trouble on any bike. The heaviest would high side you the most violently. Is overcorrection somehow related to the traction loss recovery? Real great discussion for noobs I must say. Anyway, I admit, I don't know. Not being one of the chosen few (that you referred to as "those of you who do know what I'm talking about"), I'm just going to assume you meant too much horizontal bar input like "pro-steering" (as opposed to counter-steering). Is that what you meant by twitchiness? The ease of moving the bars from side to side? Doesn't the 07 600RR have the electronic speed-sensitive steering damper that prevents it? Or it was throttle twitchiness? Specifically addressed by FI innovations like dual throttles and drive by wire. Newer is better, period. Lighter, smoother, and on top of everything, safer. Here's you chance to call me stupid again if I assumed it incorrectly about overcorrection. You can do it as many times as you want until you actually care to give your correct definition of that term if you even want to. You'd only talk to people with tons of experience and insider knowledge who understand "what you're talking about", right? I guess I'm out of the loop, as I only know about "correction" like mid-corner "50-pencing". Oops, that term is classified. Meant only "for those of you who know what I'm talking about". If I guessed the overcorrection correctly though: the lighter bike being vulnerable to tank slappers; Honestly tanks slappers are so rare I can't imagine it happening to a newbie at street speeds. Especially with a steering damper standard on all new bikes. I never even thought of turning the bars when I started riding. If you completely screw up the geometry/suspension, sure, it'll happen. But not on a brand new bike with stock tires and settings. Let's not brag about how we take WSIR's T8 or T2 in terms of speed and lines. Those speeds were my personal reference to approaching serious lean angles (touching down) and starting to feel the pavement irregularities with the handlebars. You're right, it's not gonna happen at street speeds and lean angles, but that only means the bike's "confidence-inspiring stability" is irrelevant for the street. The flickability remains relevant though. And it does inspire confidence on the street, as you don't think twice about the bike cooperating with you. It just turns where you want it to. Not to mention emergencies. Even going relatively slow (by track standards) you may find yourself needing to quickly change the bike's direction to avoid an obstacle. Sure, after a while you learn how to leverage your whole body to easily flick the bike from left to in half-second. But you'd definitely benefit from a lighter cooperative bike in the first year of riding. The last thing you need after a sudden discovery of a decreasing radius turn is an unintuitive bike that's refusing to cooperate.

08-07-2007, 01:30 AM	#24
wayne858 Spammer Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: san diego, CA Bikes: deciding on what to get Posts: 4 iTrader: (0) Rep Power: 0 (10)	hahaha i didnt think this thread would go so far but thanks to everyone that gave me those hints. to be honest i dont even have the money to get the bike yet that is why im going to get a job soon and get the money. even though i cant get the bike i wanted yet soon, can i get everyone's suggestion on a good 600 bike. i want a bike that are good on the turns.

08-08-2007, 03:12 AM	#30
wayne858 Spammer Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: san diego, CA Bikes: deciding on what to get Posts: 4 iTrader: (0) Rep Power: 0 (10)	[quote=Gwyneth;63107]Hi Wayne, I don't know your riding experience, but if you haven't already done so you should sign up for the MSF course. It's a great way to get your basics down and you learn on bikes no bigger than 250s. It won't teach you everything, but it's a great start and a safe environment is provided. Plus, if you pass the class you don't have to take the driving test at DMV (always a plus). What is a MSF course and where can i take one. Seems like it can be alot of help for me. Please help me out on where to take it if i live in San Diego. Thanks to everyone that helped me out because all of the information that you are feeding me is making me learn so much that i love going on this forum to learn more. I am now narrowing down my pick to: -Honda CBR600RR -Honda CBR600F4i (btw whats the difference between the F4i and the CBR600RR) -Yamaha R6 -Kawasaki ZX-6R (even though its 636cc) -Kawasaki ZZR600 Any suggestions on why i shouldnt get one of those bikes or why i should get those bikes. And what does all of those letters stand for . Hahahahah yeah im trying to learn the most i can and thanks to this forum im learning alot more. Thanks again to everyone for being so nice to a newbie .